Seduction Ethics I: What to do about OPP

Before we get started this morning, I’ve received a few emails lately from people who were having trouble understanding the blog because they are not familiar with the PUA lingo. Lol :-) For those readers, I offer this glossary from Fast Seduction. Newbies might also be interested in reading Neil Strauss’ best selling book, The Game. It’s a highly entertaining introduction to the community.


Anyway, on with today’s musings … it was so much fun getting everyone’s feedback about that Letter from a Female Reader that I again want to invite you all to give your opinions in the comments section.

Friend of Papi (FOP) posted a comment that raises some questions close to my heart. What are the ethics of pickup artistry?

FOP was mentioning seeing a skilled PUA who (if the portrayal is accurate) has a “no rules” approach to pickup.

One reason that makes him super successful is that he is totally cool with not following any rules from society or community pu wing rules… he has no problem hooking up with other people’s gfs, taking other puas’ sets, hooking with puas’ gfs, etc… Nothing against [him], I seen other guys, a few here and there, do the same thing. Hooking up with brothers, cousin’s gfs, friends’ wives, etc… The person hooking up with gfs of family and friends think all cool and fun that night and no nobody’s feelings get hurt and that’s not true. So these guys that play with ‘no rules’ do get laid more…. All I can say is Congrats to them… they are more successful. So does the end (getting laid plenty) justify the means?

Erika, what does the ACIM say about playing life’s game with this kind of attitude? My intepretation is that ACIM in some way is cool with [guys] satisfying themselves regardless of whether he honors the other puas (or brothers aka other gods are offended or not). I guess…. my interpretation of ACIM in this area is the guys’ who get offended by those with ‘no rules’ is their issue huh…. Erika, is that your interpretation too or is ACIM saying honor your brothers as gods and see the world with abundance so it is not necessary to hookup with everybody’s gfs or take their sets just because you can? Does hooking up with other people’s or puas’ gfs, wives, other puas’ sets truly reflect an attitude of abundance that GS himself talks about? There are definitely pros and cons of ‘no rules’. Pros is getting a more action than following the rules. Cons… someone gets hurt… but fuck them right? My dick is more important regardless of how someone else feels ;)

Again, nothing against [PUAs] doing this … just observations…. I do not condone or support their views… it just their spiritual paths… just thought it would make an interesting discussion thread.

Interesting discussion thread, indeed. I invite everyone to chime in with their views.

The whole idea of exclusivity in relationships is something I have pondered a lot (Special Relationships Holy Relationships), and I’m still continuing to sort out my feelings about it.

On the one hand, I want to go deep in my relationships, and there is a lot of appeal in going deeper with one person to have more focus. I also would like to have continuity and longevity. On the other hand, I’m finding that the less I try to tie anyone down to exclusivity, the less fear I have in relationships, and the deeper I’m able to go with people. It’s definitely a paradox.

FOP, you asked about ACIM’s view of all this. First and foremost, it is essential to have the right perspective on things, meaning the right “frame.” If a guy sleeps with someone else’s girlfriend, is he really “taking” something from the other guy? Is he really “hurting” the other guy?

Anyone who reads this blog on a regular basis knows I’m a fan of radical authenticity. So I would generally not endorse sleeping with someone else’s gf or bf if it’s grounded in deception. I want these things to be out in the open! Transparency eliminates guilt, and it is usually guilt that is the problem, not the actual thing the person is doing.

But I want to throw some ACIM ideas out there that seem especially fitting here:

“[I]f you choose to take a thing away from someone else, you will have nothing left. This is because, when you deny his right to everything, you have denied your own. You therefore will not recognize the things you really have, denying they are there. Who seeks to take away has been deceived by the illusion loss can offer gain. Yet loss must offer loss, and nothing more.”

This is a matter of perception though. If a guy sleeps with another guy’s girlfriend, is he really “taking” her away? Or are they sharing? The key is one’s inner perception of what is happening.

Here’s another ACIM quote that seems to fit here:

“Love is not an illusion. It is a fact. Where disillusionment is possible, there was not love but hate. For hate is an illusion, and what can change was never love. It is sure that those who select certain ones as partners in any aspect of living, and use them for any purpose which they would not share with others, are trying to live with guilt rather than die of it. This is the choice they see. And love, to them, is only an escape from death. They seek it desperately, but not in the peace in which it would gladly come quietly to them. And when they find the fear of death is still upon them, the love relationship loses the illusion that it is what it is not. When the barricades against it are broken, fear rushes in and hatred triumphs.”

I’ve said before that I cannot reconcile this passage with exclusivity. ACIM also says “If I defend I am attacked.” I see exclusivity as one of these defenses, the irony being that by trying to prevent “cheating” we actually create cheating — whereas by embracing “sharing” we eliminate the entire concept of cheating. See how that works? ;-)

FOP, as for your comment about “hurting” someone else, well, I know this isn’t in line with conventional wisdom, but that’s a concept we must abandon. All perceived “hurts” can be transcended through communication. I did write about this before also. One really inspiring model for making this transition is the Restorative Justice work that is being done in Brazil by non-violent communication practitioner Dominic Barter. I attended a two-day workshop that Dominic gave in the Bay Area a couple of years ago. The work they are doing there is so powerful that they not only bring a lot of peace to victims of crime, but also they have virtually eliminated recidivism among juvenile offenders who participate in the program.

But I digress … back to OPP and whether we can ever be “hurt” by someone else’s actions. In the short term, perhaps. In the long term, no. I leave you with this provocative quotation from ACIM:

“A miracle can offer nothing less to him than it has given unto you. So does your healing show your mind is healed, and has forgiven what he did not do. And so is he convinced his innocence was never lost, and healed along with you. Thus does the miracle undo all things the world attests can never be undone. And hopelessness and death must disappear before the ancient clarion call of life. This call has power far beyond the weak and miserable cry of death and guilt. The ancient calling of the Father to His Son, and of the Son unto His Own, will yet be the last trumpet that the world will ever hear. Brother, there is no death. And this you learn when you but wish to show your brother that you had no hurt of him. He thinks your blood is on his hands, and so he stands condemned. Yet it is given you to show him, by your healing, that his guilt is but the fabric of a senseless dream.”

So that’s it for now, I need to go. Please send in your opinions about Friend of Papi’s question in the comments section. And please also support this blog by following it and subscribing (buttons in the right-hand side bar) and by telling your friends about it.

Cheerio for now. Blessings to all of you.


About the Author:

Erika Awakening is a Harvard Law School graduate and former practicing attorney. She left the rat race to become a location-independent entrepreneur, holistic life coach, blogger, speaker, healer, and Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT tapping) expert. Erika Awakening is one of the world's foremost experts on eradicating limiting beliefs and lifestyle design on your own terms. Learn more about Erika Awakening

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  1. RobertVincent says:

    What gets me that a man's "success" is being measured by his willingness to betray his friendships for some ass. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that putting sex and women on a pedestal, one of the things that the seduction community goes great lengths in order to avoid?

  2. Anonymous says:

    some of my thoughts on this:

    – first, i do not support OPP.

    – attraction isn't a choice, but the woman chose to sleep with that dude.

    – while i do see the blame falling mostly, if not completely, in the woman's court i do feel this doesn't give the males a free pass or something.

    – i would let the bf know, if i ever did(which i would never conciously do). anonymously of course >.> and i encourage all guys to help out the dude whose gf you slept with by giving him the choice to walk away. he'll probably never find it out from her. i know i would hate to be like those dudes on the maury show who go years without finding out what their gf did. i'd feel like i wasted those years.

    – im kinda bothered that so many people in this community seem to think it's ok to do this.

  3. Anonymous says:

    I had this post in my heart today and as I was working with a client this afternoon, I felt a lot of compassion for all of us… I’ve been on both sides of the fence… I’ve been the woman who he forgot to tell he was engaged to someone else: they married, she left him for someone else… I’ve been the the woman who deeply, deeply loved a married man in an open marriage who gave him back to her with complete and certain surrender and spent 5 years still feeling connected very deeply to him… I still love him.

    When I thought I had retired from my wilder days, my lover cheated on me. I experienced it all; hate, rage, and a serious, very real desire to kill her… not him… but her. If I did not live in an area with so many amazingly powerful healers, who knows if I could have moved through the darkness of it all?

    I have finally laid that all aside as of tonight. I see the perfection. I followed the trail of breadcrumbs of what it was in our connection that was missing and that led me back to the kind of understanding it takes to completely free myself and everyone else of any blame.

    Whoever plays with fire gets burned.

    I can’t possibly own anyone.

    Everyone has to sort through it.

    I have noticed however… that men seem more willing to recognize each other as brothers and, in my experience, are so much more open to each other than many women are to each other.

    I am always so thankful to the women who recognize the sacred sisterhood, who live in full connection with the higher purpose of things and whose first creed is only love, do no harm.

    It also dawned on me that those who steal another’s partner with no regard for that person’s experience, are abusing sexual power and violating spiritual laws.

    I loved the story of the Tibetan couple. There is a loving quality so possible in open situations… more than a quality, it is love and freedom together.

    However, unconscious acts breed more unconscious acts… it took tremendous will power to not hurt this other woman and instead, take on all that hurt myself and work through it layer by layer, day after day until finally, tonight! Freedom from it!

    … there was very little spiritualization happening during those exceptionally raw moments when I was confronted by their choices.

    Had I been made a happier woman at the time by their adventures, I might have had less pain and gone through less trauma.

    It doesn’t seem to me that this pua stuff is about gaming or sexing ((unless that is where your consciousness is at for whatever time period it is))… what occurred to me in my darkest hours is this stuff is about loving at a larger level ((loving the whole community of people with all your heart and always surrendering to what is for the greater and higher good at all times, for every occasion and for everyone)) and dropping past our judgments of one another… that’s the simple version… the very simple version.

    To be in inner balance, living from complete inner security, is not as likely for so many people in the world as I would hope… those of us who know it is even possible for us are so fortunate!

    Healing the trauma is crucial though… can’t spiritualize your way out of the realness of rawness… only taking one day at a time… and hoping for light at the end of the tunnel.

    I have embraced him yet again and her too. I freed myself of suffering whatever their choices were or are as well as my part in it all. It was a nightmare for a while. I went through it. I really went through it.

    I hated feeling inside of me that I wanted to kill someone else. It’s sad to put someone else in that place… to be the catalyst for someone else to have to cycle through super violent feelings. I do have greater compassion now… in all directions.

    I’ve forgiven and been forgiven.

    There is tremendous freedom in surrendering the whole thing, piece by piece… and being able to let it go, letting the hatred, charge, feelings of injustice, drop.

    She was there to give a gift and perhaps still is… no need to ponder the future of it too much… We all take in ways that hurt others… until we are shown how to give freely.

  4. Reality Check says:

    Hi Friend of Papi,

    Thanks for the props.

    I had forgotten about 3rd world countries…yes, of course. There’d be no question about the sort of violence imposed on you.

    If you know a guy named Hypnotica, he did an Interview with a PUA named Mehow.

    Now, Hypnotica is a HULK of a dude, he works as a bouncer at a strip club. I think he’s been doing this job for over 20 years.

    In his interview he says he asks the girls “do you have a boyfriend”…if they say ‘no’…he says “you sure now”…and then he said casually “I don’t need any hassles”.

    I chuckled to myself being a guy who’s worked in a nightclub and seen some raw stuff go down.

    I know, he knows what’s up. He’s seen some baaaad stuff go down, and remember, this guy is BIG, and he’s not willing to play with fire.

    I think you make a good point about PU schools incorporating the potential dangers of the “NO RULES” style of game. Unfortunately, it’s only a matter of time in my estimation.

  5. Friend of Papi says:

    hi Reality Check,

    I have great appreciation for you sharing the ‘real world’ consequences… of playing with NO RULES. Even though, I dont advocate violence, your little hockey stick example may sit in puas’ consciousness as they are gaming so they do respect and honor everyone.

    Here is my personal real life example of jeaolousy…. my brother’s wife, a banking professional and normally a very reasonable person. Awhile back ago, she accused my brother of cheating. She lost her cool and went insane, and the animal side that Reality Check described took over. I witness this in front of me… she threw the computer monitor against the wall, threatened to kill herself, and eventually stabbed him in the shoulders as he was trying to take the knife away. There was blood everywhere…

    Gaming in US is probably most safe even with jealousy issues. If you start gaming with no respect in 3rd world countries like Brazil, Mexico, China, others and if go try to pull off your AMOG tactics, be ready to deal with real life gangsters… If you think you are that alpha-male, go to a bar in Rio and see how well you do with brazilian jujitsu mma fighters that are looking for fights and dying to pound the crap out of you. Tip…you can identify brazilian fighter by looking at his ears… Go to Mexico and pulls this stuff and get your throat slash…

    I hope you guys reading (esp those who resent me) take what Reality Check says and these stories of jealously to heart… Maybe, those reading will appreciate RC’s msg when your life is saved or may help you avoid getting your head smashed like Papi.

    I doubt any PU’s school want to be posterchild explaining to the news how its student got his throat slashed…. or maybe an example is needed for the SC community to awake to this issues… Maybe guys like Entropy and others make it a point to discuss the consequences at their bootcamps of playing with NO RULES.

  6. Thank you, Entropy.

    For those who are interested in ACIM’s take on this, I personally find it very helpful:

    “You have no idea of the tremendous release and deep peace that comes from meeting yourself and your brothers totally without judgment.”

    What we judge against doesn’t lose its power. It gains power. That’s why I talk about integrating the shadow self. People think if they embrace the “bad” impulses in themselves that those impulses will grow stronger. In fact, the opposite is usually true.

    It’s similar to how a kid wants to do what’s forbidden and loses interest in that thing when it’s permitted.

    Without judgment, there is only love.

    How do we know what higher purpose may be served by someone hooking up with someone else’s girlfriend?

    “Judge not because you cannot.”

    “All things work together for good.”

  7. Entropy4 says:

    I revisited this issue on my blog:

    That’s my full statement on the matter. :)

  8. Anonymous says:

    I have a quick question on connection. I realized that telling stories alone, help to create comfort as you are slowly getting out of “stranger” zone. However, i realized that i was telling stories, but yet i wouldn’t feel that Connection between me and her. Sure she would talk a bit ..but it was surface-based connection.

    I came to a realization, I do not demonstrate intent meaning “i like you” while im trying to connect. i am always overly concerned about lowering my value. AND AS A RESULT, I GET MANY FLAKES.

    The thing is, as i mentioned b4, i usually have great attraction game. I usually give hard qualifiers such as “Give me 3 reason why i should like you”.. and they actually answer with effort. And also consistent kiss-closes.

    My theory.. is that i was missing that somewhat “romantic connection” where now she logical knows she wants to see me again. When i say Romantic connection,, i mean that we both know that we like eachother. Thus, creating much more of a reason for her to timebridge and actually look foward to meeting me. versus her not knowing whether she should meet me.

    Question is..

    What is your view on trying to establish a “romantic connection” by expressing that u like her when you’re in comfort on the first day. Do you think that is what is really needed for for a true solid first interation?

  9. Friend of Papi says:

    I appreciate the fact that you are putting a stake in the ground to set standards for healthy living and honoring your fellow divine brothers. It is very clear you come from the standpoint of abundance and not scarcity. Why go after girls with bfs or husbands when there are plenty of single women out there? Why cause unnecessary suffering if you dont have to?

    If I have clients in need of pu training, I would recommend you vesus other instructors who condone and teach values that it is ok to hook up with anybody. Your stance is very healthy and actually in the long run, your clients would have higher quality lives because they dont have to deal with the potential dramas of jealous bfs or even life threatening situations. Your stance is in alignment with my views of healthy living.

    Thank you again!

  10. Friend of Papi says:

    hey Reality Check,

    I can have much deep compassion for what you went through… you make clear points of the consequences of doing the OPP thing.

    Papi also had a bottle smashed on his head after he was gaming a random girl at a Beverly Hills nightclub. The guy got jealous because he was outgamed and when Papi has his back, he knowed out unconscious. The guy ran and was not never caught. Papi ended up in the hospital for several days and now he still has scars to show for it.

    Like Erika, I do not support violence… as I have said before, if my girl is getting boned behind my back, I can be at peace with that it and can forgive her and the guy very quickly. I have enough game to walk away from any girl if the relationship doesnt serve me.

    From a spiritual standpt, if your girl is getting boned by someone else and she cant be upfront with you, she has her own issues… Sometimes, we dont know what her issues are… some may be deep rooted mommy/daddy issues. She may have been molested, she may have been put down severely by mom/dad/brother/ who knows…. When people with dark issues that have not been resolved, they do lots of things that is not easily explained that includes being dishonest with the current partner. Sometimes, they are dishonest because of the fear of loss and they dont have good communication skills. Many people are afraid to speak their truth.

    I am a wellness instructor. You can heal just as quickly as Erika and so can anyone else. I have successful worked with people that have dealt with violence and the emotions of it. For instance, I recently worked with a client who has been physical abuse by his father and another client who had up to 100 fights from age 6-18. You are welcome to contact me and I’d be glad to share some ideas for healthly living and at least point you to the right direction.

  11. Entropy4 says:

    Erika: That’s great, and I agree. But 99% of the male population is not internally validated and your ethics have to navigate accordingly. If you pronounce yourself “self-validated” and begin acting as if everyone else in the world is as well, that’s just a form of spiritual narcissism.

    Let’s be real for a second. If I’m hanging out with a buddy and a girl he knows and he communicates to me not to hit on her — whether directly or indirectly — I will not touch her.

    Why? Because self-validated or not, I respect him and don’t want to cause him suffering.

    Simple as that.


  12. Reality Check says:

    “Really: an internally validated person does not let their reality get toppled by external events, so there is never a need to resort to violence. Right?”

    I worked in a nightclub for 8 years. You? What experience do you have dealing with people at animalistic levels?

    Go peruse Triune Brain Theory…then, understand this next piece.

    The reptilian brain will EASILY over-ride the cerebral cortex.

    You are stating something that is created from the cerebral cortex, not from the reptilian brain.

    I have seen my bouncer, try and try and try and try to reason with a violating person……NO GO. He was left no choice but to put an arm lock on him, and put him to sleep for a while. Othertimes, the offender would strike, and he was forced to strike back.

    You cannot reason with the unreasonable. Period.

    Ok. THe protective use of force.

    So, ***I’M*** supposed to bear the FULL brunt of the excrutiating pain that an a**hole has caused me, by boning the woman I love??

    What. I’m going to “have a talk” with him?? hahaha

    You can’t reason with the unreasonable. What is unreasonable about the seducers actions? Easy, the repetitive betrayal is unreasonable, the narcissistic satisfaction at others expense is unreasonable, and narcissicism is noted to be very hard to treat.

    So, I would ask Mr. Rosenberg, “say your wife gets raped by a rapist who was set free by the justice system, how would you feel”

    He probably say “bloody murderous, but, I wouldn’t act on it”


    “Say, the rapist then goes on to molest a child who is six, and cause severe psychological problems to that child, and that child….was your daughter”

    “How do you feel now? Still think you wouldn’t take a baseball bat to his head after hearing about the internal wounds this douchebag did to your little girl?”

    If Rosenberg said “no”…I’d call him a liar. I know his cerebral cortex would get over-ridden by his animal brain….I know it.

    There is sooooooo much evidence out there, so much.

    So, since this guy, the seducer, the nightclub idiot, the rapist, cannot, EVER, be reached by reason….AND, their actions are never punished with real physical pain…they just continue?? why stop? Nothings going to happen??

    But, if I take out this idiots left knee, knowing, that he IS somewhat conscious of what he’s doing by seducing and boning my wife or girlfriend, ( but up till now has gotten away with causing others tremendous pain and grief because they’ve done nothing about it ) if I did this. I’d say “you’re lucky I’m not going to kill you MF”….you know…I might just have saved his life from an OJ Simpson type of character who’ll simply kill him.

    Because you do know, that people do kill over this kind of thing right?

    “Really: an internally validated person does not let their reality get toppled by external events”

    Nope. We’re talking about a VERY extreme testing of a persons internal reality. Too extreme for you to merely consider conceptually on a blog.

    Actual real world events tell the real story, and I’ve seen a lot of them go down…anyways, just read the news.

    Let’s talk about ‘violence’ for a second.

    I’ve been in love once. I was in so much unbearable pain for so long that I remember thinking, if someone said to me “RC, you have a choice, either you keep going through this, or, you can get a solid and thorough beating, which would leave you hospitalized for a month…what would you take?”

    Easy. I’d take the beating. The emotional violence I experienced scarred me for life.

    Women can process and heal emotionally in a way men cannot. Emotionally, women are so much more flexible and stronger. Now, just flip that to the physical for men. So, why wouldn’t I take the beating? My system and psychology is much more prepared for the blows than you could ever be.

    Resorting to violence? You make it sound bad, as if ripping a heart to shreds isn’t ‘violent’.

  13. If it’s ethics we speak of in relation to the “Seduction Community” what ethics have there been? Absolutely none.

    Using canned lines, negs and DHV routines( that aren’t true) are a way of going under the radar. Using the AMOG and BF destroyer clearly lack in class and ethics as well.

    If a “guru” condones it like Mystery, Strauss and all those guys, it’s no doubt everything is “game” for the aspiring PUA’s. It’s a big paradox. So in reality the internal compass’ of some of these men has always been lacking in areas.

    So speaking in a spiritual manner, all these men are attracting one another, due to their lack of morals and ethics.

  14. hey Reality Check,

    I appreciate you chiming in and acknowledging the tremendous anger that situations like that can trigger in people.

    At the same time, I also want to say that a man who is internally validated and whose communication has become powerful (which really “getting” non-violent communication will give him) would NEVER resort to violence. Marshall Rosenberg talks about the protective use of force, but that’s not what’s at issue here.

    I also really want to challenge you here because what I see operating in reality is a paradox. That is, that the guys who are most relaxed about this (i.e., in an open relationship and non-judgmental about whatever attractions the girl may have to someone else) are, paradoxically, the guys where the girl is going to stick like glue to his side. Because she can feel that his sense of security comes from within himself, and that is EXTREMELY attractive.

    Really: an internally validated person does not let their reality get toppled by external events, so there is never a need to resort to violence. Right?

  15. Reality Check says:

    “If a guy sleeps with someone else’s girlfriend, is he really “taking” something from the other guy? Is he really “hurting” the other guy?”

    Ummm, duh, yes.

    If GS and others where full of good old fashioned integrity….oh jesus…. He’d simply walk up to the boyfriend and state “I’m very attracted to your girlfriend, and she is to me, I’d like to sleep with her, are you ok with that?”

    Well, you know what the answer to that’s going to be don’t you.

    Here’s some tidbits from *the real world*.

    A player I know showed me the gunshot scar in his abdomen from a jealous boyfriend. Lucky him, no vital parts were hit.

    My neighbor showed up one day with mouse-sized bumps on his forehead…jealous boyfriend.

    Last night on the news, a house littered with bullet holes in Vancouver BC( which is experiencing bad gang related behavior ), why? over some chick at a party.

    A guy walks into a house, and blows the face right off of his wifes new lover with a shotgun. He’s out of his mind with grief and depression over losing his wife.

    O.J. Simpson goes insane after finding out Goldman is boning his wife, IN HIS HOUSE, then, drives around the city in HIS CAR…hey, I don’t agree with the murder…but, I sure do understand.

    Need anymore evidence, I can go on and on and on and on.

    What GS is trying to do, is appeal to the spiritual element of our brains, but, if you wake up the 40 000 year old reptilian brain….watch out, that brain doesn’t hear the beautiful ‘woo woo’ talk, it’s about survival. So, we delight ourselves playing around with these lovely concepts.
    But, when the rubber hits the road….guess what, people get killed.

    Get real.

    You screw my girl, whom I’m attached to, you are saying 1) “buddy, you’re nothing to me, you’re an irrelevancy, so impotent as to not cause me enough concern to not stop with this seduction.”

    2) you hurt and betrayed me. The both of you.

    Number 2 doesn’t deserve punishment, but, number 1 does. I wouldn’t even bother messing up my hands over slime like this.

    A inexpensive little hockey stick can do wonders in teaching lessons. Who knows, I might even save this guys life by teaching him the lesson. : )

    Peace indeed.

  16. I’m curious too — though I think GS provided more of his response on the previous post (the one about his blog, where there are also a bunch of comments on this topic).

    To be clear, my blessing goes to both GoneSavage and Friend of Papi. I have made clear (and my offer still stands) that if either one of them doesn’t want their interaction to be public, I will go back and delete all the comments on this topic.

    That said, I am deeply appreciative that they are willing to talk openly on the blog. I intend this blog to be a safe space where people can be candid about charged issues without being judged.

    What I see here is a real moment of opportunity. Friend of Papi is expressing concerns that many have about the community (it’s not really personal to GS). A lot of people want some reassurance that seduction techniques are going to be practiced in a way that meets all parties’ desire for respect and honesty.

    Meanwhile, from what I read of GS’s comments on the other post, he is a little surprised to hear all of this because from his perspective he did not realize that there was an upset on the part of the other person. Also, I hear GS saying that he would have appreciated if all of this had first been communicated to him directly, so he could address it directly, rather than hearing about it for the first time on a blog comment.

    Of course, many of us have hesitation about addressing such things directly with people because our social training is that it’s not really safe to do that. A primary purpose of this blog is to facilitate that kind of open communication. That’s why I’m happy to see this conversation happening here in what feels to me like a respectful way. I actually hear Friend of Papi having a lot of admiration for GS on many fronts and just wanting to make sure that everyone’s needs will get met in these situations. Wanting trust and honesty to go along with the transcending of social “rules” that often happens when guys get good at this.

    That’s what I’m hearing, anyway, hopefully some of that is accurate.

  17. Entropy4 says:

    Savage: Yes, men and women are co-conspirators… but that still makes you a conspirator in this case, no?

    I don’t think Friend of Papi is doing anything out of line here. Apparently he has an issue with Savage and with Erika’s blessing, he’s brought it out here.

    So speaking of that kind of honesty, I’m curious to hear the response.

  18. GoneSavage says:

    Imagine a girl having a frank conversation with her boyfriend. “Wow, I’m really attracted to this guy and feeling a lot of chemistry with him, and I’m nervous telling you that because I don’t know how you’re going to react.”

    Imagine our whole world being transformed into a place where that kind of honesty is what happens every moment of every day….for both women and men — with respect, reciprocity, and mutual consideration.

    Defering sexual responsibility to the man underscorse an inability to see each other as peers.

    Nothing is more condescending to a woman than kid-glove treatment. Yet most men reflexively provide it. And women don’t protest it.

    Sex and seduction is always a mutual agreement. The say-so is both hers and his.

    Let’s acknowledge women and men as peers and co-conspirators in any union, sexual or otherwise. Here’s a chance for mutual pursuit, mutual gratification, and an acceptance of mutual responsibility.

    Women and men are equals when we focus on words, actions, intentions, accountability — anything but the naughty parts.

  19. Friend of Papi says:

    Dan & Michael,

    You guys bring interesting pts… rather than getting defensive and holding some anger toward me. Even those that resent me for making my observations, I love them anyways for contributing to the contrast of this wonderful discussion.

    Let me give some examples of a SC brother (SCBro). He used to fill me in on his LRs. One LR was with a fellow coworker. He knew she was married and have met her husband previously. Since he was able to generate attraction applying various pu techniques ie bantering, kino escalation, etc. After a few drinks and fun partying, he hooked up and continued seeing her. She was getting attached and I advised him to end the relationship because it may end up costing him his six-figure job if things sour at work. Another example, he had a cousin with just avg. non-pu game. His cousin was seeing a swedish blonde but not totally into her. SCBro decides to bang her after a few drinks. Next day, cousin gets super upset and dumps swedish blonde and family relations get pretty sour.

    He is also totally cool with not following pu wing rules and if he has an opportunity to take the girl you are gaming, he would do it in a heartbeat…. But…I can still have compassion for this guy since I know his story and he has issues like his father beating the crap out of his mother when he was little and now he is still traumatized. Maybe, he thinks that hooking with as women as possible at all costs can help deal with his pain on the inside and help him be happy…

    This SCBro has 'no rules' and he too is a successful pua. If he was around my gf, wife, or fiance, he would hook up if given an opportunity and a few drinks (blame it on the drinks right?)… I doubt there is any conscious block holding him black.

    Now… going back to Michael & Don's comments, some puas already have the belief/perspective (programs) that every brother is god and we play the game honoring each other. Obviously… SCBro did not view the world from this perspective and it justifies satisfying his dick at all costs. If SCBro has a spiritually programs in his consciousness like ACIM, he would not have done so. Since he doesnt, he is doing his best and that's why we can actually have compassion for him. Again, for those who are spiritually awake, do we have responsibility to bring greater awareness or do we just turn our cheeks and let it slide?

  20. Michael, you said:

    “At the event, someone asked the question “how do I know if any particular action I take is compassionate?” One of the lama’s answers was along the lines of “if suffering arises as a result, then it wasn’t; if wonderfulness arises as a result, then it was.” Compassionate actions remove suffering, and uncompassionate actions bring suffering.”

    Beautiful. I love that definition.

    Look, every conflict or potential conflict (such as potentially having sex with someone else’s girlfriend) is an opportunity to connect. If we hold our true feelings and expression inside of ourselves and turn it into judgment of ourselves or others, then we are going to create suffering. If we communicate with a genuine desire to connect, without attachment to outcome, we will almost inevitably generate compassion and mutual understanding.

    Imagine a guy having a frank conversation with his friend. “Wow, I’m really attracted to your girlfriend and feeling a lot of chemistry with her, and I’m nervous telling you that because I don’t know how you’re going to react.”

    Imagine our whole world being transformed into a place where that kind of honesty is what happens every moment of every day.


  21. Michael says:

    A couple stories come to me about this.

    At an event, I was talking with a Buddhist practicioner who had been over to Tibet & India. He told me about three people he met that were involved in a polyamorous long term relationship. A Tibetan woman had taken two men as her lovers / husbands. They were good friends with each other. They knew about each other, too … no secrets. He asked one of the men … um, what’s up with that? Doesn’t it bother you to have her go off with him, the other guy? He told the practioner, “No. I love them. I love her as a wife. I love him as my brother. I want them to be happy. They want me to be happy too.” And they were. For real.

    At the event, someone asked the question “how do I know if any particular action I take is compassionate?” One of the lama's answers was along the lines of “if suffering arises as a result, then it wasn’t; if wonderfulness arises as a result, then it was.” Compassionate actions remove suffering, and uncompassionate actions bring suffering.

    Mehow has written and spoken about how girls may not even tell you they have a bf if they like you during an interaction. Now, when information like that is withheld … it seems to me it rests on the shoulders of the person who withholds that info. Hell, when I was a kid one of my gf’s ended up making kissyface with some other guy in another town. Was she responsible for letting it happen? Sure. Did the other guy know I was in the picture? No. Was I responsible for failing to fulfill her needs that led to her not worrying about it? Sure. Did I even know how to, or was I ever taught how to? No.

    What about the situation where someone knows full well that they are gaming someone else’s girl? I’m thinking of a comment Erika made about what it means to be a person that meets their needs or tries to meet their needs in ways that don’t meet other people’s needs. Why not take other people’s needs into account? If we’re not personally developed enough, or don’t have the technology/toolbox, to meet the needs of all the other people involved, it’s likely not going to go the route of the Tibetan triad. Suffering is going to arise, somewhere. That suffering wouldn’t arise if we avoided the situation and left the seed buried in the ground without watering it. Could we just as easily go somewhere else to meet our need and avoid it? If not, is that how we want to be remembered? Is that what we want to represent as men? In the lineage of all men that have lived, is that what we want the little place we occupy to contain? In the lineage of our family, is that what we want to stand for? Can we really live with being men that bring more suffering into existence? If not, do we have what it takes to make all life more wonderful? If we don’t … then what?

  22. Anonymous says:

    Dude, you claim to be “non-judgmental as possible”, but it sounds to me like you are clearly executing judgment against this GoneSavage dude.

    Whatever happened is over now. Seek healing. I’m guessing that you contributed as much to your own hurt as he might have.

    How clear did you make your desires known? Did you authentically communicate, with 100% honestly and openness, to this girl that you wanted to be in an exclusive relationship with her? Were you completely open with your desires? And did you do the same with this GoneSavage dude?

  23. Friend of Papi says:


    No disrespect to you, if you are going to post my thoughts and bleep out “GoneSavage” as the pua I’m referring to…., then let GS come clean and let him explained to the world his thoughts…

    As for me, I try to be as non-judgmental as possible and present information….hopefully just as observations.

    If GS wants to be a dating/relationship coach, then people have the right to know his history and his ethics…. If he comes clean and is truthful, and people still want to learn from him, then it is their prerogative and we shall honor that.

    Is it not our obligation to share with potential pu hopefuls that some instructors live in much darkness and have not awakened from this dream??

  24. “One reason that makes him super successful is that he is totally cool with not following any rules from society or community pu wing rules… he has no problem hooking up with other people’s gfs, taking other puas’ sets, hooking with puas’ gfs, etc… Nothing against [him], I seen other guys, a few here and there, do the same thing. Hooking up with brothers, cousin’s gfs, friends’ wives, etc… The person hooking up with gfs of family and friends think all cool and fun that night and no nobody’s feelings get hurt and that’s not true. So these guys that play with ‘no rules’ do get laid more…. All I can say is Congrats to them… they are more successful. So does the end (getting laid plenty) justify the means? “

    From my Buddhist perspective, I’d say that what our hypothetical PUA is doing to other people isn’t the crux of the problem.

    The issue is what he is doing to himself. Actions have consequences.

    Even setting aside the possibilities of losing friends, gettting beat up by a jealous boyfriend, and assorted personal drama, there are still the internal consequences. A guy with no real “value compass” is going to have a hard time finding direction for himself since he has no bearings and no way of knowing where he is headed. It’s a lonely, unhappy way to live, and I wouldn’t wish it on anybody.

    I think it’s also important to keep in mind that successful is not the same thing as happy. Amy Winehouse has had a lot of success, but when you look at her personal life, do you think she’s happier or better off than the average person on the street?

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