There’s a lot to say about this, but I’ll just focus on one scenario.
Let’s say, hypothetically, that a woman has just had sex with a man for the first time. Now maybe there are some women out there who have sex recreationally and are emotionally detached from it. But let’s say hypothetically that we are talking about a woman who is opening herself up emotionally to a man when she becomes physically intimate with him.
Okay. Now what happens after she sleeps with him for the first time? She is probably feeling a little vulnerable. She’s probably looking to see whether her intuition about this guy was correct, whether he is in fact a sincere, solid, emotionally stable, “sexworthy” guy. (I love that term, sexworthy, though I use it tongue in cheek.) Whether he is going to stick around and be someone she can count on emotionally.
That’s why it’s important to continue leading after sex. There is a tendency for some guys to think, okay, now we’ve had sex and I can relax. And he may become less attentive and not continue the masculine leading stuff he did that got him the girl in the first place. She may become a little scared or less attracted if that happens. His leading is part of what created the initial chemistry and attraction, and it’s important to keep that.
Also, as a girl, it feels horrible to chase a guy for a relationship. Chasing after a man is something that I simply will not do at this point in my life, no matter how much I’ve already invested in the relationship. So how is momentum going to be maintained in the relationship? By the guy continuing to lead. Continuing to initiate and set up dates and practice chivalry and so forth. I recommend that a guy set up the next date during or immediately following the previous one. It shows leadership and confidence and sincerity. It gives the woman a reason to continue thinking about a man because she is looking forward to the next time she’ll be seeing him.
Think of leading as creating a safe “structure” for a budding relationship. A woman’s deepest emotional feminine energy needs that structure as a safe place to come out and play. The more emotionally safe she feels (assuming that attraction and excitement continue to be present also), the more of her heart you’re going to get to see. Deep emotional intimacy has a chance to thrive in the structured space that is created when a man leads.
Infinity actually said it best in his comments on my Emotional Process of Physical Escalation post:
“What it comes down to is your ability to begin and manage a relationship that you want to pursue. If you really feel like the interaction is worth it, then you will treat it as well as you can.
“Neglect is NOT an option. And when it comes down to it, you’d want to be treated the same way.”
Indeed. If a man wants to reap the rewards of deeper emotional intimacy, neglect is not an option.
I welcome your feedback, as I’m just starting to clarify my own thoughts about this.
Well that is sort of the gist of what I was saying…what if you don’t want anything after sex…at least not with a particular girl. What if, as is the case with learning pickup, you have to seduce ALOT of women to hone your skills.
I suppose the difficulty I am feeling is that, in order to seduce them, you have to build alot of rapport and comfort. Please don’t get me wrong here…I enjoy the process and the interaction just like she does…it feels good! But after the sex my mind goes…who’s next???
Maybe I just need to go after women I am more attracted to, In vulgar PU terms I tend to hover around the HB 6 or 7s…but to be truly happy and satisfied I need someone in the 9-10 range. Trouble is they tend to be more difficult and my game is not that solid yet…Im new and need more practice which means picking up/using girls for practice. I know this seems harsh and it feels that way for me to say it as well.
Im like many guys…frustrated SO frustrated with not beiong able to get the hot young women we desire. Pickup is a means to an end but it IS a process…it takes time to learn and sometimes that means going through alot of people to find the right one.
hi Max,
Well, I certainly don’t want you to end up in the friends zone.
But IMO the art of expectation management is undertaught in pickup and is super important for having happy relationships, regardless of the form the relationship takes.
I’d like to see more of the gurus focusing more of the time on how to handle what happens after sex.
Also…that famous PUA? Im sue he felt fine with the situation because as skilled as he is he can pull pussy any time he wants. But make no mistake…if he found you attractive, he WANTED to get into your pants. He WANTED to fuck your brains out and make you scream with forbidden pleasure and have you thank him for it after. he didn’t plow past your LMR because he doesn’t need to and thats fine. Im just saying that your advice is somewhat suspect for the true would be cassanova.
not every girl can be pulled, you have to let tem go, but after being AFC and losing my last girl friend before learning about this stuff…I can safely say that NO girl is going to tame or trap my heart until SHE has proven to ME that she is the real deal…that she wants ME. Withholding sex from us if she knows we both want it is just a classic example of females manipulating/getting compliance from men in the classic “The Rules” fashion.
Any guy who pines for a girl who wont give it up is just begging to get put into the friend zone.
Sad but true.
Maximus the recovering romantic.
Hmmm…interesting perspectives. My recent success was very much like what MG described. Even as she went with it she was saying how she normally does not just hook up with random guys. That is why this is the SEDUCTION commmunity. I was able to lead her on a physical/emotional journey. I was able to deflect her latent buyers remorse by just being a cool guy.
However I think the classic chick advice of “just tell her how you feel.” does NOT work. if honesty worked to pick up girls then all the AFCs of the world would not be AFCs. You have to create adventure and excitement to create attraction. EC and Clark are both masters of the caveman direct approach and turning a girl on. Attraction is not a choice means that the skilled PUA can get women to go for the s exual experience that all of their social and internal programming tells them they would NEVER do. In this case the SNL I pulled told me that since she is vegan, she has a rule that she would never even KISS a non vegan…yet i ate a prosicutto sandwhich right in front of her, plled her to my place and the thought never even occured to her as incongruent to her rule until I was dropping her off at the airport.
It sounds to me like you are one of those women who, being celibate, will make a guy wait for nigh forever before actually sealing the deal. This turns the men in your life into LJBFs, “orbiters” etc. YOU may think of them as just friends and if they are fine with it then more power to them, but honey the dating model has changed.
It used to be courtship then marriage then sex. Now, dates and a relationship are the rewards for great sex. If, as a man, i can’t get what I really want from a girl, why should I invest so much energy merely to be at the whim of her selection? If a girl does not select me to mate with i can move on to the next.
I too want the “perfect” girl…the total package of chemistry, personality, looks, common interests and communication etc etc…I might even try and court her if I thought it would take us to the right place. However, NOT escalating has put me in the AFC friend zone more painfully and more often than I would ever like to do again. Thats why I found the community…thats why I want to learn this stuff.
Women SAY one thing but do another. They SAY they want the nice guy but sleep with the bad boys.
yes i believe in being honest and if a girl who I oulled but am not interested in for an LTR presses me for “our status” i tell her I am dating right now and not ready to settle. However recognize that many girls wouldn’t even have the relationship status talk with a guy until he has given her an amazing orgasm or ten.
Does that make any sense?
Also, I hope you take the chastity belt off your sex life soon. In my experience, girls are even more horny than guys, contrary to popular opinion…
Well, thanks for being honest, MG. You certainly are blunt.
Of course now we know why you and I never slept
together ;-)
And we also know part of the reason I appreciated the famous PUA so much. After all this, I am appreciating how he handled things more each day. There is something incredibly beautiful in caring about the other person’s feelings as much as your own indulgence.
Erika,
Having sex with a women who is willing and wanting casual sex takes half the fun out of it.
The conquering is when you get the girl to do the “what she normally wouldn’t”.
For the girls who are already willing to have casual sex, I try and push it to the next level with either threesomes, toys, making videos or whatever makes them cringe to start…
MG
Hey Max,
Tell her your a CIA agent and your boss just called and you need to go seduce the daughter of a diplomat and will be overseas for 2 years.
That should work.
MG
Yeah, and actually that reminds me — this truly is what the best of the best do. They practice immaculate honesty. Not just honesty in words but also honesty in intentions.
I spent a week with that famous PUA. He knew sex was not a casual thing to me, so he didn’t push past my LMR. In retrospect, I appreciate his integrity immensely. We had a really amazing time together without having sex, and we both felt good about it afterwards.
hi Max,
Yeah, the answer to this is easy but perhaps not what you want to hear.
Be honest. If you can intuit that she doesn’t want to have casual sex, make it clear that to you it is casual. There are plenty of girls out there willing to have casual sex with you. It’s expectation management, and from my perspective it’s an indispensable part of being a good PUA because it’s the only way to have congruence and integrity and feel good about yourself.
So my advice is to man up, be honest, have sex with the girls who don’t mind casual sex, and be willing to let the other ones go.
– Erika
Hi Erika! Found your blog through Clark and am appreciative of the female perspective. Im new to pickup and I have a very real question that I hope you will answer…
I notice in the successes I have had so far that something happens. As I go through the PU process of attraction rapport and building comfort leading to the seduction the woman gets really into me. And because I am so good in bed I often hear “Are you for real? How are you so good?” And then after sex i get the vibe that they want more from me..all of a sudden I am relationship material to them.
Problem is I am new..have a long way to hine my skills and have seduced women that while attractive to me and enjoyable, are not really the blueprint of the girl I want to eventually settle down with. It may sound harsh to put it in these terms but I saw the interaction as badly needed field practice.
Is there anything I can do to soften the letdown when I have to tell them that I am not looking to get serious or even not even wanting to see them again? Right now it is all about learning the pickup/seduction and obliterating any last vestiges of neediness in me.
What is the ethical way to be able to enjoy a woman, give her an amazing experience but not leave her feeling cheapened when I next her for more field practice???
I find that when a woman gets vulnerable after sex it hits my vulnerability and I feel a bit guilty for having used her in some way to further my self improvement. I know I am not the only guy to struggle with this.
I hope this post doesn’t make me come off as some jerk because that is not who I want to be. I had an amazing PU success/SNL the other day and I cringed inside when after sex she was saying things like “I dont normally do things like this. I cant believe I am here but you are so comfortable and don’t seem like a player…”
Sincerely
Max
Mogul Guy – Erika didn’t say “weakness” – she said “vulnerable.” Two very different things. Different hormones than yours, too. We have Oxytocin, and it bounces around in our bodies way differently than your dopamine and testosterone. We get bound to you, whether we like you or not! Love the “manwhore” comment – so totally a turn on! My guess is your girlfriend feels good with you and can say anything to you or about you. A very good thing. Makes you think every woman is like that, but most of us aren’t. Rori
Manwhore just said it really well over on RSDN:
“A girl wants to be inspired by a guy to intimacy, to trust and be free to act like the little feminine human animal she is supposed to be. She can’t be expected to carry any of the weight. This is not her role. At least not in our day and age.”
Hi Mogul Guy,
Thanks for chiming in. You know I love your GF btw.
To be honest, my thinking on this is still fairly fluid, so I’m kinda riffing out loud here. Like I said before, communication trumps everything.
I don’t really see it as weakness or being subordinate. I see it as saying that I’m not interested in mediocre relationships, so I really enjoy it when a guy brings the same presence and attentiveness to the connection after sex as he did before sex.
Sex is really just the beginning in terms of the richness of intimacy to be explored.
Also, I am very attracted to dominant men, so keeping that to some degree in the relationship feels sexy to me.
Anyway, I’d rather discuss this with you in person cuz a few little messages back and forth doesn’t really do it justice.
– Erika
Erika,
The biggest issue I have with your original post is that you define yourself into the position of weakness by having had sex. Why would anyone chose to do that?
If you want to be “partners” with this person, don’t subordinate your standing.
As a woman, you can just as easily (maybe easier) find someone else to have sex with than he can so why would you let that be your weakness?
As my girlfriend puts it “I fucked him, he didn’t fuck me”
MG
hi Guillermo, welcome to the blog. I love hearing stories like yours because it makes it seem like there is hope for deep intimacy in long-term relationships.
With all this talk about what I enjoy from men, I do want to make sure it doesn’t turn into “shoulds” though. The most important thing of course is honest communication, and if a guy I’m dating wants to tell me his views about all this, I welcome that kind of honesty.
ACIM says always “remember love is content, and not form of any kind.” So for me rules are always trumped by open communication.
Erika,
The reason I married my wife after knowing her for two months was that I felt incredibly intimate with her in a short amount of time. And I remember the intimacy was initiated by this game we played called “tell me something your scared to tell me”. In return we shared our scariest honesty with each other and held space with out judgement. I believe this was the start in paving a way for a loving, trusting relationship in which there was mutual effort in sharing.
As for leading, I say fuck yah. I find myself still leading after 3 years of marriage. I notice this comes naturally to me since I’m a Latin Man and grew up in a machismo culture. I consistently taking my wife out, engaging her in conversation and not afraid to spice it up in the bedroom. Take my advice… date a Latin Man.
The Latin Love Machine,
Guillermo (William)
I am feel that is important that there is a healthy “balance” of leadership in a relationship.
The problem is that men are great at leading women into the bedroom and then that’s where it ends. Guys begin to get comfortable because they feel they’re conquered that mountain when they don’t realize that they have an even higher mountain to climb.
At the same time, it’s important that women take some initiative to build the relationship as well. Whether that means asking us over to cook for us, wanting to do something that we’d like to do. Pretty much anything that we’d for you – which goes back to what I said, “you’d want to be treated the same way.”
At the same time it’s important that guys continue building momentum in the relationship by being a leader – and that can very depending on the expectations of the relationship.
And John was on when he said that it’s all about growth. You just have to assure her that it’s ok to grow and open herself up because you will tend to her vulnerability.
There’s far too much selfishness being peddled in the Community at times. In an effort to knock out the idea that “men-are-not-as-good-as-women”, there’s a pillar of insecure selfishness propped up to overdo the the sense of actual equality.
Translation — men are taught to express selfishness in word and action, because it is a faster route to social action than learning a broader sense of compassion and mutual equality.
We all need to screen one another, there’s no denying that. There’s a lot of people on both sides of the gender fence who treat other humans as shit, but no matter the gender, the tools for finding actual good relationships remain the same (even if they’re applied in different ways to suit people).
You can’t go wrong with honesty, confidence, compassion and expression.
It doesn’t matter who picks to go where, or who is better than whom at some skill….it’s about moving towards the goal, the path over the reward and the growth made along the way.
I think you ladies are taking Anonymous’s comments a bit too far. I can relate a bit to what he’s saying, although I don’t completely agree with it.
As a guy, we have to be on our guard that a woman isn’t stringing us along. Because we’re always leading, we have to be weary of freeloaders who follow us but never give anything back. It’s not that she needs to start leading after a while, it’s that there needs to be some value coming back to us other than her looks or her vagina. I think that’s all he was saying, and in that case I agree with it.
But if his meaning is that of the common PUA mentality of “every girl has to show themselves worthy to me before I date them,” that’s a bit one-sided and selfish and I disagree.
But on to the main post: a lot of newer and inexperienced guys fall into the trap of not leading after sex. These are usually the guys who are really needy and suddenly decide that because they laid a really hot girl, that they’ve found their new girlfriend — they become supplicating and submissive all over again, doomed to repeat the mistakes that brought them to the seduction community in the first place.
The other situation which I think you describe is when a guy leads you until sex and then just kind of stops and abandons you as to avoid that deeper emotional connection.
There could be a lot of reasons from this, everything from the guy being very manipulative to just poor communication of each other’s expectations. I would say if the woman knows she’s going to feel that vulnerable after sex, she needs to screen guys appropriately for the ones who will still make themselves emotionally available and continue to lead after the sex occurs.
http://www.entropypua.com
One does wonder why Anonymous did not reveal his identity …
I’m all for a hearty discussion with differing views so I want everyone who comes to this blog to feel free to express themselves honestly.
Like Rori said, guys who’ve been really into me didn’t seem to have any problem with chivalry and leading. They seem to enjoy my enjoyment of it. And I do sometimes cook for them or do other things that feel more feminine to me.
Erika, I don’t know who anonymous is – sounds like a man to me – and I’ve never heard of a man who was really “into” a woman actually being concerned for a minute whether or not she was “interested” in him.
This is the kind of “rule” a man would make in order to find out if a woman was “interested” in him enough to “go along” with an open-ended yet exclusive relationship.
I know this is pretty harsh thinking.
A woman should date many men, and be interested, in some way, in ALL of them. As human beings, and messengers, as opportunities to grow and learn – and then let the MAN set the tone for whatever the relationship is or isn’t.
If a woman likes to cook, and wants to invite a man she’s been seeing over for dinner, that’s great and fine. If she has an event with friends and would like to invite him, that’s fine, too. If she’s willing to hang out with him at her house watching a sporting event and eating take out – that’s fine, too. But she should be doing that with ALL the men she’s dating. NO ONE MAN gets preferential treatment until he claims her – and this whole idea of “showing a man what she has to offer” is just bs. And I’ll bet, if I talked to this guy – he’d own up to it. Rori Raye
In my experience, by the 3rd or 4th date, the girl should propose something to do. For example, invite the guy to meet some friends, a home made dinner, a picnic, etc. This is an opportunity for the girl to show what she has to offer, to show that she likes to give as well as get, and to signal that she is in fact interested and not just saying yes to dates.