This is something I have heard often in the seduction community:
Have sex with a woman as soon as possible because that will give you the most options about where the relationship goes from there.
I’ve then heard dating coaches go on to talk about how the woman will be more invested in you, she’ll “backwards rationalize” why she’s in love with you, etc. I’ve heard dating coaches tell men, if she has sex with you, you then hold all the cards. You can turn it into a long-term relationship (LTR). Or you can turn her into a f**k buddy or “friend with benefits” if that’s what you want.
Probably no one who reads this blog regularly will be surprised to know that I disagree with this approach completely.
Indeed, having sex too early can easily cause a relationship to self-destruct. Similarly, having sex without a clear alignment of both parties’ expectations about what that means can easily lead to all kinds of misunderstandings and unhappiness.
My advice is very different from the conventional wisdom: if you care about the girl and where this is going, do NOT have sex until you are sure that you both agree wholeheartedly about what it means.
Let me tell you how this happens emotionally for most women. Having sex triggers a hormonally-based emotional response that reduces her outcome-independence. So, yes, most women will become more invested in you.
Now at first glance, that may sound great for the guy. “Oh, yippee, now I can call the shots in this relationship,” he may think.
But remember the immutable spiritual truth: there is no such thing as win/lose. Anything that is win/lose will ALWAYS, one hundred percent of the time, become lose/lose.
Sometimes this will result in a relationship that is not satisfying for either party: Maybe on the outside it looks great for the man because he’s got a “harem” and lots of sexual options. But in truth what he has are a bunch of not-so-happy women in his life, which ultimately will drag him down too. (And, remember, many women have not yet learned to be authentic about their feelings, so they may go along with it for a while, but ultimately he’s going to hear about it, probably in ways that don’t feel very good. Women with lower self-esteem and hazy boundaries will stick around longer but not in a way that’s going to be satisfying to either the man or the woman.)
Often this will simply result in losing the girl. If a man were to seduce me with what I perceive to be implications of a LTR and then tried to convert me into a friend with benefits, I’m gone. I hold men accountable for what they say and subcommunicate to me, even if it’s not convenient for them. In fact, this is about the fastest way I can think of to lose a high self-esteem girl.
Of course, I love hearing other viewpoints. Why else would I write this blog? But I’m here to tell you that the “have sex as early as possible” school of teaching has all kinds of downsides that are never discussed, and that there is a LOT of value in waiting.
There are lots of ways to continue to build chemistry with a girl without having sex with her. The truth is that going about things the slower way ultimately will result in a more satisfying experience for both parties. And, wow, you had better make sure the intentions are aligned if you want to keep the girl around.
I go back and forth on this (probably because it is so personal and individual). On the one hand, I had over 40 sexual partners before I was 27, almost all of them casual because as soon as I slept with a guy then I had no interest in him anymore. I slept with the BF on our first date and I don’t think we’d be together today if that hadn’t happened.
However, we are now 3 years in and
I work with a guy that went out with this girl he met, things got a little heated up the first date and they ended up in bed, and he actually said that he wished she hadnt slept with him because he had really liked her and her sleeping with him so early changed his feelings about her.
Erika,
What’s your email address?? I’m interested in exchanging links with you. My email is steve@scubadate.com and my blog is http://scubadate.com. Hit me back :)
Scuba
studies by helen fisher show that when women have orgasms they get attached…but when they don’t they dont get attached…also she shows that women hope for ever after but this is not what they want. women lose desire after 4-7 years max generally speaking…however some stay in love/in lust for a longer period of time if the guy knows what he is doing. check out esther perel for that.
there is no “set” age for when or when not to have sex, i dont believe sex under 18 is bad, as long as you dont go crazy with it. If your bf/gf and you are in the mood, and are getting along, and happen to have sex, it happened. So many people feel restricted if they’re under 18, but you shouldn’t. I think it’s dumb, and from a religious standpoint, if you’re worried about it, don’t, because
Adonis,
I’m all for the romantic hero … just keep in mind that many many women are also hoping for “happily ever after.”
Frankly, my advice is not aimed solely at helping you get your rocks off. It’s intended to help make sure that both parties feel good about the interaction before, during, and after.
LMR serves a purpose. For many women, it helps to
I'm not really sure who you are but I keep seeing your name associated with a lot of guys in the community…
…Gotta say this is either really lousy "chick" advice or misguided at best.
I am notorious for my ability to pull Same Night Lays and I end up getting into some form of relationship with the ones I truly enjoy.
Had I waited with a lot of
I’ll say that when the question of attachment comes up, we start getting into some spiritual self righteous territory. Is it understood what composes “attachment”… including hormonal bonds that once activated through sexual connection, can have incredibly long lasting reverberations?
I think that is one of the reasons PUAs want to get to bed with a woman sooner rather than later..
Well it’s obvious that for erika, commitment means “what have you done for me lately”. perhaps, it must involve entertainment, dinner, etc… spending cash on her because she believes in chivalry i.e. let the guy entertain me.
you see, no pussy is free…unless you know how to play the game. lol
what have you done for me lately? wasn’t that the name of a stupid song btw?
a Swedish girl can have up to 15 sexual partners in her 20’s.
hm.. make that early 20s.
again, what does commitment means to you erika? deep attachement?
perhaps you could give us examples..
regards
To Devout Hypocrite:
Well, maybe we can start a thirty-plus group. I agree there’s something about life experience that puts the stuff I once thought was SOOOO IMPORTANT into perspective.
Sorry to hear about your friend, as well as for the other challenges going in in your life in your blog. The brand of Buddhism I practice doesn’t include formal “prayer” per se, but you
I will say this…your post is kind of like a Rorschach test in that anyone can project almost whatever they like into it.
I think this is because you’re not willing to SAY what you’re really saying. ie, XXX individual, while meaning A, said B, knowing I would conclude C, and I believe this behavior is dishonorable because of D.
You’re being coy, though, which is why there
I also find it disingenuous that PUAs would try to invalidate what I’m saying about this when it’s implicit in their own “dating science.” Why do you think they recommend “have sex with her early” so she’ll be more attached to you and invested in you? I was going to make a pointed remark here, but I’ll translate it into NVC:
Seriously, it really does not meet my needs for
Ans,
I went back and read my comments and I don’t see anywhere that I claimed to be speaking for ALL women. I do speak for a large number of women, and many of them have never expressed these sentiments to men due to the social norms of inauthenticity (i.e., I won’t say how I really feel because I don’t want to be perceived as “needy,” “clingy,” or “desperate”).
Also: I
@Anonymous 10:18 Ooops. I’m a chick. ;) I’m actually a mid-30’s chick who lost her best friend to the PUA community, so I originally started reading Mayson’s blog, then Entropy’s blog and now Erika’s blog, following a happy little blogtrail to learn about the community, in an effort to understand what the hell happened to my friend. As a mid-30’s chick who has spent plenty of time talking to
Hey all,
A lot has been said already and I didn’t have the time to read everything, but I’ve just been through an experience that is very relevant. I’ve been practicing the art of pickup for about 1.5 years now and I’ve had mixed results. However, recently I met a girl who I connected with very deeply without having sex. I cared about her in a way that I never felt about anybody. I
Sid here again,
I like this stuff, because it’s discussing different levels of relationships. Honestly though, I really think people need to keep expressing their opinions while at the same time questioning concepts and wisdom in the community that are stated as fact (and relationship gurus such as Pat Allen and David Deida. Speaking of Pat Allen, she may be on to something but she’s
You say that *ALL* women regret but they don’t say it, its like you have this telepathic ability that enables you to read minds.
In other cultures like islamic cultures, polygamy is considered as spiritually acceptable, in other cultures like india there is no such thing as emotional connection, the families arrange the marriage.
The classical romantic monogamous relationships come from
You’re just overgeneralizing, this is not true as i’ve found the opposite to be the a lot of times.
As for the win/lose thing its not correct either, do not transfer your feelings into other people.
I understand that for you, you like to wait and have committed relationships but do not project this on all women.
Everyone is different.
btw, on the theme of the last post, not very often but once in a while I also just say “no” to people’s comments and don’t publish them. I love having an open forum and love your participation and I also look out for myself and how any particular comment feels to me.
Dan, I’m as subtle as a jackhammer. :)
Hey Dan,
Rori talks a lot about masculine and feminine energy on her blog. And I believe she was heavily influenced by Patricia Allen.
It’s the whole “polarity” idea. It’s what creates such intense chemistry between a man and a woman.
When women become the initiator and aggressor in a relationship, they reverse that polarity. Which often does not work, or at
“in my experience, the women who want to be f**cked ASAP tend to be masculine energy women. Nothing wrong with that. But the craigslist post, for example, struck me as being written by a somewhat masculine energy woman. Such women tend to match well with feminine energy guys.”
women with excess testosterone.
“No one, and I mean no one, likes to be “penetrated by a total wuss.””
Linmayu, pertinent information for our date eh? You don’t send subtle signals, do you?
Erika, I’m not so sure about the masculine/feminine thing you just mentioned. I’m not sure what a “feminine energy” guy would look like…Adam Lambert?
“Of course, I only know these women exist because men who claim to be looking for a committed LTR keep attracting them and then bitching about it…”
Linmayu,
LOL :-) That is hilarious.
I’ve been resisting saying this cuz it sounds like a “judgment” to me … but I feel the urge so I’m saying it anyway …
in my experience, the women who want to be
Hey Jen,
Thanks for chiming in! It’s great to have you here.
As for your comment about judgment, I appreciate you saying that, and I long ago stopped worrying about all the rumors that fly around. Nearly all of them are false so it’s somewhat entertaining to hear what people come up with ;-)
Anyway, I hope you’ll be back and share more perspectives when it feels
The craigslist post is great. :D No one, and I mean no one, likes to be “penetrated by a total wuss.”
There are apparently tons of women out there who want to be fucked ASAP and don’t want to bother with any kind of commitment or relationship. To which I say, more power to them. Let them hook up with all the guys who feel the same way, and the world will be a happy, sexy place.
hi erika…loved this post & ensuing discussion!
Judging from the length & attention, you certainly have no concerns obtaining commitment in people's commentary :)
If it helps… I base my sexual decisions on observation of actions. I have been in 2 uncommitted relationships in the past 2 years. One stated clearly & honestly he was looking for "fun &
Responding to Devout: it sounds like what you are saying is that it is important to you, you have a need to be remembered as someone special to the woman… and this is a form of asking for respect… you want your contribution to her to be respected. I want to extend empathy to anyone, including Devout, who had that simple need, to be respected for the contribution they were making, no matter
why not have a 24 hours relationship rather than a one night stand just to bust a nut?
it’S all about perception.
In response to Erika’s last comment, one question I always want to ask guys is: Do you want to be the guy whose name she can’t remember, whose haircolor she can’t remember and who she only remembers as the guy she had a couple of wild nights with? Or do you want her to remember YOU the person, and meaningful times shared?
any relationship that is less than a year is not really a “long term relationship” unless you live in vegas!
“I took a chance on a couple of guys who didn’t pan out as LTRs, and I’d take those experiences back if I could.”
Does this mean no joint lay report with Entropy about what you could only describe earlier as some sort of hyper cosmic connection?
Seriously …
Do you really want to be the guy she regrets having sex with?
(And btw she’s not going to tell you this, she’ll just feel it.)
Or would you like to take a moment to find out and respect what she’s looking for out of this interaction?
As for the Craigslist post, it’s very well written and quite humorous.
And I don’t disagree with it. It’s just that I wouldn’t want any of that unless it’s in a committed relationship.
Responding to Ells, “This article actually hits really close to home for me. I’ve spent about a 2 years listening to community teachings, and I have started to believe that all of this “fuck em ASAP” mentality has really started to hurt my relationships with women.” i’ve one last comment… all this fuck em asap mentality or women being on the make looking for hammerjack stud is also hurting my
“There’s a lot to be said for figuring out your sexual chemistry early on in the interaction.”
I agree, but I’ve always been able to tell just by the feel of the interactions and by the kissing.
“I say stick with the third date rule. from my experience women who are under 27 are not looking for a ‘husband’ or a guy whom they can spend their life with and have kids and the
the idea of waiting so to build chemistry is iffy.
For me, the chemistry can be felt pretty fast if theres to be any.
Its not something that you have to manufacture.
Sid Willis here . . .
I have to say this is a fascinating topic. I honestly believe we may never know the exact formula for sex and relationships. Everything is pretty illusory and fleeting in life anyway – how could we get this down to an exact science?
A lot of bedding asap is for the purposes of pu marketing, and loosely tied to the Red Queen (which by the way –
I say stick with the third date rule. from my experience women who are under 27 are not looking for a “husband” or a guy whom they can spend their life with and have kids and the whole white picket fence.
as for promiscuity, come to french canada, most women want to test drive the man before jumping into a relationship with him. I lost a couple of girls because I took too long to bed
This article actually hits really close to home for me. I’ve spent about a 2 years listening to community teachings, and I have started to believe that all of this “fuck em ASAP” mentality has really started to hurt my relationships with women.
When I really looked deep down at why I was learning all of this information, I found that it was not because I wanted to have sex with
The one thing the “Don’t have sex until you get a ring” and the “Have sex with her on the first or second night or you’ll lose her” schools of thought have in common is they’re both putting a lot of importance on whether or not you’re having sex.
I personally feel having ANY kind of “sex timetable” is putting needless pressure on the relationship, the other person, and, yes, yourself.<
you’re dead on about the high quality/esteem girls bailing if they realize you sent untruthful info. i’ve had that happen more than a couple of times. the quality ones do not tolerate being misled.
Anonymous 11:25 – I can’t figure out what your point is exactly, although I get the impression you are fending off a fear that you don’t fuck hard enough. :-)
The last girl I had a fling with told me that the (married) guy she was sleeping with had a habit of slapping her breasts — hard — every time they had sex. Slapping a woman’s breasts was something that had never occurred to
I just read Fuck Me Already… one woman's honest demand for sex. It's humorous… and aggressive… and it's totally cool that some women want a hard pounding fuck from a man all the time or "HE'S NOT DOING IT LIKE A MAN". Get off it lady! Show some respect for men who are just as interested in successfully… wait… I guess that's where I have to stop…
Hi Erika…
It’s a messy one on both sides… men I talk with often, *often* have no idea how to be friends with someone they really find themselves wanting as a lover… what’s really true for guys about creating friendship anyway? Is it all a hoax? Or do men simply want to know that they are spending meaningful time with a wonderful woman who sees in him a very real LTR?
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What you’re prescribing is the mainstream’s conventional wisdom.
Obviously, considering you quoted me like five times in this piece, I disagree.
The majority of women out there don’t have any sexual hang-ups, and like the Craigslist post, enjoy having sex on the first or second date as much as the guy does. It’s nice because waiting on sex creates a lot of expectations for
The CraigsList post is a lot more persuasive.
I spent decades doing it Erika’s way. While I supported a lot of restaurants, the women wound up with nothing but contempt for me.
I m curious to know of your point of view on this post erika
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sea/561877622.html
best
MH