all the studies in the world don’t change the real life effects that many people have experienced

Vegans cannot get all the nutrients they need from plants. That’s a simple scientific fact. Not only they cannot get B12, but other very essential nutrients are a big problem aswell:

Much like we live in a community, plant nutrients are often found associated with neighboring complexes [1]. Calcium (Ca) in plants is primarily complexed with oxalate, phytate, fiber, lactate, fatty acids, protein, and other compounds [2,3]. Although many edible plants are high in total Ca, complexation with oxalate (forming Ca-oxalate crystals) renders it undigestible (Figure 1) [4,5,6], resulting in oxalate being considered an “antinutrient”. Soluble oxalates can also reduce absorption of minerals from other consumed foods [3].
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3448090/

Vitamin A is only found in animal foods. It’s a myth that plant foods are high in this nutrient. Instead, fruits and vegetables are high in a family of phytonutrients called carotenoids. The body must convert three of these compounds—beta-carotene, alpha-carotene, and beta-cryptoxanthin—to vitamin A. But in humans, this conversion is quite inefficient, with about 10 to 20 molecules of carotenoids needed to make one of vitamin A. In addition, 80 percent or more of natural vitamin A from animal sources is absorbed, but only three percent or less of carotenoids from plant foods are absorbed.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854912/

Western societies are notoriously deficient in omega 3s and overloaded with omega 6s . All of us need to eat more sea life or adequately supplement fish oils. Vegans falsely believe these essential fatty acids; EPA and DHA, can be converted from the plant precursor, ALA, found in various seeds. Chia and flax for example. This is simply not true as our bodies cannot convert these in efficient quantities. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9637947/

Vegans just live a cult lie, based on self-contradictions and logic-errors. As it is typical with cults. And they aggressively preach their cult ideology, no matter what. And stay die hard ignorant about facts contradicting it. As usual with cultists aswell.

Shocking Origins of the Vegan Diet
carnivoreaurelius.com/veganism-religious-roots/

Considering the things we learned about Einsteins life, I gotta say that this comment didn’t age well. He was a barely functional retard that failed even basic math, was a notorious wife beater, stole research from others while working in his patent office and spent more time playing violin than doing science.

You’re correct: they are psychotic, by the definition of that term.

Psychosis is a term used to describe any mental state where a person is incapable of a normal perception of reality and/or chain of logic; and vegans, owing to their deficiencies in DHA, B12 and several other compounds, deteriorate mentally to the point where they can’t express true rationality or see the logical end-point of the arguments they make. Their editing of reality becomes total, to the point where they simply refuse to acknowledge the science that they refuse to accept, claiming it as propaganda or biased rather than being able to admit that it shows their way of life to be utterly unhealthy and profoundly dangerous.

As to ‘idiotic’: The lack of rationality ultimately reflects itself in a lack of intellect and sense, and idiocy is the logical result. It would be more accurate to say that they are rendered idiots by the biological consequences of vegan choices, rather than that they are idiots for taking them up in the first place. They may be unwise, or deluded, or deceived by the apparent honesty of others’ statements and beliefs, or they may be idiots from the get-go. Being an idiot from the start is far from a given; though being an idiot by the end is pretty near universal.

Veganism
Religion 2.0

Ultimately veganism is about an ethical framework within which the ´believer´ envisages their entire, but ultimately limited, Universe.

Breaking it down, yes it is about cruelty towards animals, (including humans I hope). It is about not abusing the ´rights´of the animals, to live their lives. This all sounds pretty good framework. Very plausible and such.

Here are my issue, and they are not few.

At this point, there are a few more pressing matters than the fact someone drinks a pint of milk.

Just look at the immigration issues in USA and Europe. Conflict all over the world. We are not even able to respect those simple rules towards are own race, the human race that is. Why would you then spend so much energy on protecting the rights of other races (Yes, I am a racist, but the color of your skin, in my book, does not define a race, I prefer the scientific definition of a race. ´In biological taxonomy, race is an informal rank in the taxonomic hierarchy, below the level of subspecies. It has been used as a higher rank than strain, with several strains making up one race´.) So before a Vegan sits on a high horse about not eating meat, do tell me you have your priorities straight, and have spent at least equal amount of energy in reducing the pain in the human race.

Eating meat is NOT unethical. It is only unethical if it is a direct result of YOUR OWN morality. And there is no superior morality, no matter how you dress it up. Eating meat is also not uneconomical, since economics focuses on value, and if a person decided that a kilo of meat is worth more than 10 liters of water and 10 kilos of grain, then there is a fair trade off. Is eating meat un-ecological. If it were, no meat eating species would exist today. Eating meat is NOT against mother nature, and how the Universe has decided to operate.

But my biggest issue is really the ´Holier Than Thou´ fucking attitude. No, you are not a better human because you refrain from the consumption of certain products. Just like I am not a better human from refraining to smoke or drink alcohol. They are PERSONAL choices within the Ethical Framework I CHOOSE to live my life. Yes, it is about choice, because that is what morality and ethics is all about, your choices. That you do not drink milk, is your choice not mine, that I drink milk is MY choice, not yours. I choose to drink milk since it does not infringe unto my own Ethical convictions.

I run a Bistro. The reason I offer vegan meals is because I feel that people who choose to be vegan are not being served. But I also serve lactose free food, for those whose needs are not being served. I also serve gluten free food, for those who are unable to eat gluten. I also serve seafood free food, for those that are allergic to seafood, and I serve peanut free food for those that are allergic to peanuts. This is a business decision, because I know that in the area I operate, there are no delicious alternatives, except for the one that open a few months ago.

I also have learned it is not that difficult to make Vegan food that actually tastes like food anyone can eat.

this whole article sounds like it comes from a hurt place. I bet quite a few of us vegans were or are being rude to you and that really sucks. Hope you are surrounded by cool, nice people to balance it all out.

Here’s some points I’ve made in response to your blog post..

The “possible and pracatable”definition is broad so that you can apply it in a way that fits your circumstances. If you have to incorporate animal use into your life to survive, then that’s what your veganism looks like. I think we just need to really be honest with ourselves about where we draw the line between what we do for health and what we do for the persuit of pleasure at the expense of another.

Mass suicide could be applied as a solution to a whole lot of human caused problems and could be seen as the logical conclusion to almost any world view. If there’s no humans, there’s no oppressors or oppressed. If there’s no humans, there’s no human suffering.. ect. This approach is like having a maths problem and instead of solving it, you just crunch up the paper It’s written on and throw it in the bin.

Your argument about human oppression is true, we should all (vegan and non vegans alike) be thinking about human exploitation and try avoid supporting it where we can. This being said, your argument is “because some vegans don’t care about fair and safe human working conditions, I don’t have to care about exploited animals” which doesn’t really make sense. You can be vegan and buy fair trade as well. Also, the working conditions in slaughter houses (staffed by poor, underpaid, migrant workers) are so bad that the people who work within them develop ptsd-like mental illnesses.

Unfortunately many crops require industrial bee pollination and in a world where insect populations are declining due to all kinds of pollution, this kind of overuse of bees is sadly unavoidable. We have to eat plants to live healthy lives, so avoiding all bee use is a really tricky one. Oat milk is a kinder choice in that regard. Also, you don’t have to believe a cow=a bee=a human to be vegan.. you just have to do your best to avoid animal use and suffering.

If we did have to compare the cow to the bee, we would also have to concede that the cow will likely be living on cleared forest land, where an entire eco-system will have been destroyed. She will likely continue to degrade and compress the soil in a way that it will be unlikely to ever recover. If she is not pasture fed, she will consume grains which were grown on cleared forest. Those lives lost (and potential future lives of generations of animals) in eco system collapse should be considered too.

As far as hunting goes, I think there is an argument for only eating or killing pest species. It’s a bit of a tricky one because it’s not ethical if hunters are allowing re-population of pest animals just to kill them for fun. Which is what they so often do. We have so many feral animal problems because of the releasing of pests, just to hunt them. I’m not sure about how it works where you live but it’s an issue here in Australia. I hear the re-introduction of apex predators does wonders for ecosystems all over the world.

I agree that even the most green living vegan will still be a burden on animals and the natural world in general. However, anti-natalism makes veganism look crazy and unreasonable and would stop people from even trying to live better. Also, insinuating to a expecting couple that both they and their unborn child are better off dead (even while trying to follow their own logic)is a bit harsh and extreme. it’s er.. not exactly how you get people to come around.

Last but not least, there is a cornucopia of studies which indicate the long term benefits of vegan diets. by comparison, there is very little evidence for the long term health of paleo dieters. Watch out for that Chris Kresser!

Anyway, sorry about the essay.

J

I don’t think a vegetarian arts cafe is the place to find activists. Your ‘study’ may be a little skewed.

I know many vegans who study economy and law just to further their cause… and don’t forget the thousands of protesters that can be seen from the streets around the world.
And the groups that break into slaughterhouses, rescue animals, sabotage fishing and whaling boats, block access on livestock ramps, climb barbed wire fences to rescue lab animals… its dangerous work not everyone is comfortable doing. So the best activism most people can manage is talking to meat eaters or commenting on articles like this.

Meat and dairy used to be good for the economoy, but they are far from highly profitable today. Dairy farms are barely staying afloat financially, and most animal products are heavily subsidized. It takes huge amounts of rescources to raise animals. They eat more, drink more, and produce more waste than the same population of Humans.
It’s estimated that it takes up to 8,000 gallons of water to produce a pound of beef.

The idea of not buying meat is called “boycotting”. If you don’t like something, don’t support it. Every time you buy meat, you are paying the company to kill another animal and fill that gap on the shelf.
Not buying meat means not supporting the industry.

The notion that almonds kill honeybees is incorrect, the article that was referenced stated that the pesticides used on almonds kill them.

And finally, the argument you are using is basically that the pesticides used to grow plants kill more animals than eating the one animal directly.
First of all, the animals you eat also eat plants grown with pesticides.
Second of all, killing an animal and paying someone to kill an animal is the same thing. Buying meat and saying you dont kill animals is like hiring a mercenary and saying you have never killed a Human.

Modern omnivore diets rely on supplementation as well. Commercially-farmed animals are given B12 supplements, milk is fortified with vitamin D, and iodine is added to salt.

Life is chosen at the level of consciousness. If people really wanted the problem solved, they would start working there.

everyone’s entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it might be.